There’s also investing

My Father worked as an engineer from when he got out of the Navy until he retired. He used money from his Navy pay and from his regular pay to buy stocks. Let’s just say that since his estate has been disbursed, I’ve given serious thought to closing my business and going straight to starting my film production company.

All that from money he earned than invested.

I dont want to come across as argumentative

but your last sentence is wrong. Many people have become financially independent by working regular jobs and earning regular paychecks. The trick is to spend less than you make, save and invest wisely and for the long term. Starting your own business is a very speculative way to try and achieve financial independence – 80% of those that do this – do not succeed and, in fact, wind up the business.

I joined Arbonne with the hope of

retiring my husband from his stressful 20+ year job in computers in corp america. Since the Arbonne thing didn’t pan out, we are starting our own company, and using his experience in computers to do this. Suggest this to your boyfriend, maybe he can sell the program that he wrote! business ownership is the only true avenue to financial freedom.

Second, take a look at some of the books about Amway, ie ‘Merchants of Deception’ which you can download for free. They are hauntingly familiar! Maybe this will help your boyfriend see the truth. You should read them yourself to see where his mind is at.

Third, you are going to have to let his involvement run it’s course. We don’t want to believe that we’ve been duped! We’ve been brainwashed to believe that our failure is our fault. I’ve come to believe that MLMs are like gambling we keep thinking this time we’ll hit the jackpot, we’ll find our ace and make our next level. Only statistically it’s IMPOSSIBLE much worse than playing the lottery…

As far as still collecting money, maybe he deserves that! My thought is that if he isn’t putting in more than he’s getting, why NOT? On the other hand, I had to get out completely so that I would not be tempted to place the necessary $100 order just to get a small commission check…I had to realize my limititations…

Whatever you do, have some patience with him. It sounds like he is coming out of the fog. Best wishes to you and to him.

Thanks for the suggestion

My Bf just got his 90 day reveiw. They think he is great. They are not aware of the computer program he set up. My bf is frustrated at the low pay of this job and he is applying to computer jobs. When he was programming at home he was happy. So I hope it works out for him. No matter what he does he will be happiest in front of a computer.

Okay, remember it clearly now

I didn’t remember some details, like whether he started before or after you met.

He’s not going to find a job that pays him residual income. No company wants to do that, since it’s income they don’t keep. I’m sure there are some jobs out there that pay residuals, but the best way I can think of to create residual income is to either write a book or make a movie that keeps paying some kind of royalties or to create your own business that sets up a system where people pay by subscription.

I’ve heard of situations where a sales person continues to make an income on sales of things like subscriptions (the salesperson makes some each time it’s renewed), but anything like this will eventually slack off or peter out, since over time fewer people will keep renewing.

Here’s a big point for him to consider: Computer and data work has a much better potential to provide residual income than many other fields. Once you write a program, the effort is done and you can resell it many times over at a fraction of a cost (to you) of the original. Just print a new manual and burn new disks and you’ve got another copy at a cost of $10 to $20.

Is it possible he could work out a deal to sell the software he’s written for his work to his own company? That might help move him over to a computer job, if he wants, since they’d want new versions with improvements and bug fixes.

He might also be able to use some type of auto-updating feature and, instead of selling the program once for each company or set of licenses, could sell it as a subscription program. Then a company would pay him a set amount per month for a certain number of licenses and that would include updates and bug fixes. One advantage is that once he fixes a bug for one company, he can push it to other companies as an update as well.

That’s a few ideas you might want to forward to him. For what it’s worth, my business is based on a model like this. I sell subscriptions to a data service. My clients pay me monthly. I have a simple program that runs on their computers and the program that runs on my computer does all the hard work (that includes the processes I don’t want others to be able to copy). As of now it’s automated so the data is delivered to them regularly, but I’m still working on the control programs. When those are done, the data processing is automated and managing the business will take very little time. He might be able to set up something similar with the program he uses for his job.

I will give you a brief reminder of my situation

When I met my boyfriend I had no idea that he was working for a MLM. After a few months of dating I went to a couple of meetings and I was appalled.
My boyfriend had been working in the computer industry until his company got bought out by another. He decided he did not like the corporate world and joined Primerica through an acquaintance. At first he made quite a bit of money, and then it all fell apart. I met him when he was going bankrupt. It took having all of his savings, and second mortgage money running out to finally get him to apply to a real job. He got lucky and on the third interview he got a good job.

He recruits medical professionals for hospitals across the country. The computer program for his job was not efficient. So he wrote a program that allows him to work much faster then everyone else. He is winning all sorts of awards at work because he is able to place so many people. However he is still collecting money from Primerica. He gives Primerica $40.00 a month for the privilege of using their webpage! He wants a job that he can collect residual income like Primerica. So he is not completely satisfied with his current work. Sometimes I get nervous that he will return to Primerica. He talks about it with such affection. His things if only X had happened then it would have worked.

Although I must say he is defiantly starting to change for the better. He is no longer around other Primerica people so his thinking is getting more rational. He wants to take a computer class so he can learn the latest language and be competitive for jobs in his field. I have watched him meet people just to talk rather then recruit them. He is trying to act like a professional by dressing and talking like someone with a master’s degree rather then the low lives that are drawn to Primerica. I have to remind him not to swear or to make jokes about burping. But it is much, much, better then it was a few months ago.

I would like to ask for a little bit of advice

My boyfriend used to be an RVP at Primerica. Now he works a standard 9-5 job in which he is winning all sorts of awards. I still have a few concerns.

First, he thinks the managers at his present job don’t know what they are doing. So he is planning on giving them all a copy of a primerica book on how to manage a business. Fortunately it is out of print and he is having trouble finding it. This makes me think he has not quite gotten over Primerica.

Secondly, he is still a district something-or-other which is a few steps lower. Which means he is not “allowed” to advance to an RVP position again. It also frees him of managing an office and Saturday meetings. Nor does he go to any other meetings. However he is collecting money from previous clients every month. I do not feel right about him collecting money from this organization. He is in desperate need of cash and this brings in income. I am not sure how to approach this one. He is making money without doing anything but I don’t like the source.

Thirdly, he still has his IRA with Primerica. I have mine in Vanguard. Mine is doing extremely well and I keep hinting he should move his money. However is convinced that Primerica is as good as Vanguard and moving the money would not gain him anything.

How do I get him to finally break the chain with Primerica? Now that he is not as engaged with Primerica he is looking at people differently. They are no longer potential clients or recruits they are potential friends.

Also he is seeing the benefits of a real job. Now when he is sick he goes to the doctor with a $10.00 co-pay. He has time to do things that he wants when he is off work. Lastly he is not as stressed about money, now that he knows he has a steady paycheck.
Although some months are better then others.

Has anyone ever been in this situation? How do you get someone to take that leap of faith and let go of the past?

Hal is seriously doing his best to get out of programming, though

He’s on extended vacation and refuses to go back to programming until he finishes at least one, maybe two scripts.

I’m willing to bet, though, that there are a lot of programs out there that can do what theirs does and maybe even some FOSS (Free/Open Source Software) that one can get to do some of it without having to pay for it.

And the OOo API is a b!+(# to learn! The trick is to write an interface that makes the stuff you want easy so you use your own interface and do all the dirty work ONCE, in that interface, so you never have to see it again. (Technically, write a wrapper and put the ugly code in the wrapper.)

I’ve been a lurker on this blog for about six months and this is my first time writing

I love this board! It got me out of my first and only MLM within a week of finding it(the board, not the MLM!).

I had no experience with MLMs until April 22, 2015, when I got suckered into XanGo. One of the requirements to be allowed into this spectacular opportunity was to go to one of the major events within your first few months of signing up; another was to be on a two-case per month autoship ($335 a month per person – my boyfriend signed up too, but only for me. He thought it was ridiculous but indulged me sweetly anyway.) So we were getting 16 bottles of XanGo every month – there’s over $600 a month spent right there.

I won’t even mention all the CDs, DVDs, brochures I bought for the required weekly “trainings”. Of course since I’d signed up with my credit card everything was just automatically debited, so if one didn’t keep track, I can see how so many things get hidden in the bill, for example, our shipping and handling fees. We thought it would be $250 a month each, but add taxes, shipping and handling, and it was $335 each per month.

Surprise! When I signed up, XanGo only had the “specially patented for twenty years” mangosteen juice, but soon they tried to get me to pre-sign up for their mens’ and womens’vitamin line (they looked pretty much like Centrum to me, ingredient-wise)and their skin care line (only available to ME, if I sign up for autoship NOW -because I’m one of the chosen!) At least I didn’t do that. In Orlando they had professional models putting little drops of this cream called Glimpse on your fingertips. It was all very controlled and secretive. You had to wear a badge to go anywhere. The models were not allowed to say anything but their scripts. And everywhere you turned there were well-dressed men in black business suits and micro-walkie-talkies, all very important and hush-hush.

The Orlando “regional” was the only MLM major event I’ve ever been to. I still wanted to give it my best shot, but we live in the wine country in California, so Orlando, Florida is as far away from here as you can get, without leaving the States. I did ask that since they have these events all the time, why I couldn’t wait for the next one coming up in Utah, since that’s a lot closer to California.

They looked at me like my hair had just caught fire. “No”, they explained patiently to the dummy, you have to go to the NEXT ONE, and it doesn’t matter where it is. Are you in, or are you out? We are experts at this, all millionaires, so don’t try to reinvent the wheel.
Trust us, this is how everyone does it. You ALWAYS go to the next upcoming event, always, and you will be going to Utah in the fall, too. It’s not an either/or. You go to every single one! So are you coming with the winners, or going to sit at home with the losers, the wage-slaves and the dream-stealers? The losers who are on the infamous Journey of Broke? You’ve been especially chosen because you show all these rare, unique qualities. I was special!

It was a long, cramped flight; I had to spend five days away from home, and I had to share a room with three other people. I’d booked a room for myself, but then people from XanGo groups contacted me and said they’d all like to share this nice room (it was on the convention site, so easier logistically)and couldn’t afford it on their own. I felt it would be selfish of me to keep my room for myself, so I said yes (to which my husband reacted with both amazement and great glee, because he knows what a private person – okay, prima donna – I am). So now I’m sharing a room with two queen beds and one bathroom, with two complete strangers, and one guy I’d said hi to once at a local XanGo meeting.

Orlando was from May 29 – June 1, 2015. The two guys traded off sleeping on the floor, but I had to share a bed with this girl I’d never met and didn’t connect with. Then of course in the morning everyone has to be at the same XanGo rally at the same time, so four people, all new acquaintances at best, sharing one bathroom. Even in COLLEGE I had my own bathroom!

I was shocked at the whole scene. Everyone was dressed up like they were going to the opera. There was constant cheering and applause – actually I felt like I was in one of those Pentecostal rallies, like the Elmer Gantry film or what I imagine a Jimmy Swaggart show must have been like. They introduced someone named Estella Salinas, who lives in Mexico and is one of XanGo’s elite. She got the loudest cheers and gave the longest talk. She went on and on about how she’s signed up practically everyone in Mexico.

Well, we’ve had the same wonderful Mexican gardeners for years. They send what little extra they make back to their families in Mexico. If you give them a ten dollar tip they practically cry with gratitude.
They are poor! Their families are poor! So how can these people living in Mexico afford to pay XanGo $300 or more every month? I realized these bloodsuckers are selling a literally impossible dream, and preying on the weak and hopeless, giving them false hope and taking every peso they had. They won’t even have their tin shack left once Estella is through with them.

All around me people were screaming and cheering and even crying. She had a huge neon yellow powerpoint page behind her that said one word in ten foot high letters. It said NEXT! She was so proud of herself as she said that if they can’t understand what a fabulous opportunity this was for these poor starving people, they are too stupid to deserve to be rich, therefore – NEXT! It made me sick. I got up and walked out. This was around midnight. They left most of the daytime hours open for “shopping”, where I watched thousands of people stand in long lines to pay $80 for cheap sweatshirts and backpacks that said XANGO all over them.

I could go on but I’ve never posted on this board before and don’t want to be rude. Is this too long? I hope I can join in the conversation here. I love to read it – oh, that reminds me – when I got home from Orlando my husband said “How was it?” And I said, “Whoa, this isn’t what I thought it was at all.”

One of my nicknames is “the internet queen” because I spend so much time writing and researching on the internet. So I googled “Xango scam” and “MLM scam”. First I found scam.com, and then I found mlmsurvivors, and that’s the place for me! I spent a couple of days glued to my screen reading the mlmsurvivor posts, and then I called my upline guy and said I have decided I don’t want to be involved in this business after all. Thank God! And thanks to everyone who took the time to post on here and help educate people who are so disgustingly, deliberately misled by these liars. Cindy Samuelson, anyone? Maybe she’s only XanGo. But I saw her in person at a local event, and that was actually unnerving, like a Twilight Zone episode.

I love the articulate writing, that people on this board will so honestly talk about the real pain they went through, both emotionally and financially. Oh, and I admit I always look for Hal’s great posts.
I am a writer and really want to write a book about this, possibly in the style of Stud Terkel’s old book “Working”. This whole MLM scam fascinates and horrifies me and it really is my favorite subject to talk about. I saw one post where Mike Dillinger said he’s also interested in possibly writing a book or expose, so I contacted him and am hoping that maybe more people would like to get together and get this information out in the real world. I’d like there to be no MLM survivors because there would be no more MLMs! Then we could still enjoy the board and be triply satisfied because we actually put a stop to it, or at least got enough information and truth out there that it will eventually shrivel up and die. I feel this board helping everyone feel okay about themselves again after being so duped, and that’s great. I also have a desire to tell people who aren’t YET mlm survivors. Maybe a great book would have an impact on people before they get hurt, and prevent some of this from ever happening in the first place. Or is that just wishful thinking?

Thanks for reading and I hope I didn’t break any rules. PW, I did read them first, so if I did, it was an accident! I just really feel inspired to put the truth out there – what MLMs really are. I saw just a few days ago that XanGo had proudly announced they’d signed up their one millionth “business builder” (gag). So yeah, I guess there is a sucker born every minute, but I want to do my part to show the MLM’s dirty underside. How can this continue? Why are they on Oprah?

I went on Amazon Books and searched “MLM”. There are hundreds and hundreds of books on how to make money with instant approval payday loans in the fabulous world of MLM.
Maybe thousands. The Yarnells (XanGo made me buy that one, so I already had it), Randy Gage, Rich De Vos, John Kalench … all the names I’m sure everyone on these boards is familiar with.

Then I searched “MLM scam” books, and guess who the top author was? Rod Cook! Wow, does he ever have some interesting web pages. This book’s title: MLM Compensation Plans” – and its description says: “It contains secrets to understanding MLM pay plans, tricks to maximize your income, avoiding MLM pay plan traps, and how to dodge illegal pyramid schemes. It includes all MLM compensation pay plans, Network Marketing compensation pay plans, Party Plans, Internet Affiliate and Multi-Affiliate pay plans, Mortgage MLM plans and Real Estate MLM base plans. A chapter includes MLM or Network Marketing compensation pay plans to avoid that fail or pay poorly.” And he’s the guy behind the so-called MLM Watchdog site! Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice…

Oh, I’m just so interested in all this. Please forgive me if there was a word limit. Until I spent my four short months in XanGo, I knew nothing about MLM. But because I interview people and write about them for a living, I’m endlessly fascinated to hear everyone’s stories, and thank you all so much for including me in your group. I’m looking forward to any responses or comments. I hope I haven’t overstepped any boundaries.

Hal, or any other good programmer

could probably write software that does the same thing over a weekend. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if something akin to that program was currently on Sourceforge. The hardest part about making it an OOo extension, is learning the OOo API.

Did anybody ever point out to UFF reps, that in the current economic climate, getting an equity line of credit won’t be possible for the people that it targets?

I was sitting in my favorite coffee shop today and

witnessed some guy pitching United First Financial. To me, this one is a lot worse than than the others because it’s $3500 to get their stupid software. The pitcher was encouraging the guy to take a second mortgage out to make the system work.

The poor working schmuck (he works for a landscaping business) kept signing contentedly about how he was going to be able to pay his house off so much faster and how that will help him. The pitcher also was “helping” him make a list of all the people he can recruit into his “branch”

He also pulled out some financial magazine that had a puff piece about their technique.

If they hadn’t left together, I was going to tell the guy to google United First Financial and Dave Ramsay. (who has a very succinct explanation why it’s a farce).

Again, the most disgusting part MLM recruiting is the mind-fu**ing that they do to people. They find out what people’s dreams are, then use them to manipulate. It really irritates me. It’s like a sexual predator talking a teenager into going up their room or something. Makes my skin crawl.

Sorry to hear about your MLM experience

I would cancel the credit card and replace it with a new one if they have this information. If its through your bank account, I will contact my bank and explain the problem to them and let them instruct you on what you need to do to resolve this problem. If all else fails, close out that account all together and open up another. Its better to be safe than sorry. There’s always a way to undo a situation. Also I would write to the company explaining my departure from being involved with the company any further just so you can have something in writing no longer giving them permission to go into your account. Its called stealing if they no longer have permission. If you have to, file a police report if they continue, as well as a report with BBB. This should help protect in the event that you need to file a suit in court.

Thank you for a great laugh!

I’m a former teacher with a wide range of experience, mostly because I worked special ed, and also because I did work for a while in private school settings as well.

There is just no way you’re going to convince me of this, especially considering how much AW twists the truth to keep their people in the organization.

If you’re saying that this refers to AW kids who are home schooled, then that is totally beyond belief. I’ve worked with many parents in home schooling. I would never want kids home schooled. They *always* have significant gaps in their education that their parents don’t see and I have yet to meet a kid with extensive home schooling experience who did not have significant social problems.

So if you’re here to learn, why are you telling us all this stuff?

Oh, and thanks, again, for a good laugh — I mean a literal “laugh out loud” laugh!

Wow. What a statement! Really?

Having read your post a couple of times, all I have to say is that I know 5th graders that can write better.
Or perhaps, being able to write a couple of sentences doesn’t count as “more knowledgeable” in Amway?

A little friendly advice. If you don’t want to get chewed up and spat out in this forum, try not to start by putting people down(like the statement about “Amway kids”) and making wild, unsubstantiated statements like the ones your post is full of.

Hello everyone

I am not here to promote my current MLM projects. I am hear to learn and thats about it.

I was in Amway at 18, and as a friend and I looked back on the influence of that culture in our lives recently, we both were thankful for it. Why? The Amway kids are more knowledgeable and industrious on average than street taught or standard educated kids.

Doesn’t really even matter if the parents ended up being successful to any degree, we were positively impacted by the realization there was more to life than a job, and that someone was supporting the idea of dreaming up desirable futures.

I have been in Herbalife, Quixtar, Excel. and i made little more than someone else a warm chair. I have been scared to succeed and I didn’t really know how I was doing that to myself. It pissed me off. I really don’t like it when I sabotage myself and get to live with the results.

Most recently I found I just had a really hard time on the phones with people, until it changed almost overnight. I can’t tell you how happy I was about that.

Well, I haven’t met anybody yet, lookin forward to it.

Because we all know, “if you can dream it, you can do it”

So… my dream is to hit the Mega Millions for like $300 million dollars. THen I can quit my job at the Wealth Management Firm where I work and have THEM work for ME. Then I can pay off all my debts..
all my close relatives debts, then I can have a modest house BUILT for us back in our hometown so we can be near our friends and family. Of course, I’ll donate a few million to a few local charities, and maybe start up a new business in my local area that can provide good paying jobs and boost up the economy.

See, it’s a good dream with a good plan, not too totally selfish. So since I can dream it, I can do it, right? Heck the odds are better than trying to make big bucks through an MLM…

… too bad I hardly ever PLAY the lottery…

Hope that helpsI’m not a Mom

but I do work from home with SL $ NT (telecommunication company…I certified with the “Mickey” company).
and I also do surveys. The surveys don’t pay a lot some pay $2 while others pay a little more. To base an income on online surveys wouldn’t be a wise decision. The little money I make go to small bills (my light bill is $30. If I make $10 in surveys that’s not even half the bill but hey I’m not complaining).
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You might want to try various forum like wahm.com or workplacelikehome.com. Both which has great information for “at home” workers.

Regarding all the work at home

one site I found which seems to be fairly reliable is volition.com . They have listings for the online surveys, as well as focus groups and mystery shopping sites.

I enjoy focus groups, and living in Chicago there are a number of companies. Where else can you be paid 50-100 for an hour of your time?

I’ve made a bit of cash from the online surveys, but most sites now seem to enter you into a drawing now, or they pay you in redeemable points.

I did a 6 month project where I would receive mail, log the date I received them, and send them back. I think I made about $ 200 in amazon.com credits for that one.

Also, mystery shopping can be lucrative, but is extremely labor intensive. The key seems to be being very organized, and accomplishing multiple shops in a day. Also, with most of the mystery shops it takes about 45 days to get paid. There was an article about a woman who made 50k a year as a mystery shopper, but that was probably before her reimbursements for purchases. I’ve shopped a number of 5 star restaurants here, and I know of people who have mystery shopped cruise lines, but you need a lot of experience beofre you can be considered for that.

That’s my .02, but I like the volition site as being fairly well organized, and they seem to keep track of which are legit and which are scams.

I get those offers all the time and since I have been trying to find work to

do from you so I can stay with my disabled wife, I tried about 5 different “online surveys”. They all had similar questions, but all first required that you give them everything short of blood type. I would give them the info and proceeded to go through 20 minutes or more of answering questions about products and other interest of mine. About this time I would get a window popping up on my screen telling me I did not qualify because I did not fit the demographics they were looking for and I should try again later. There would then be a thank you and it was over…but really it wasn’t! I had given them just what they wanted and they did not pay a dime. These people putting out the “make money for taking a survey” email never really wanted me to qualify for anything. They already got what they needed for free. They got all my personal info so they could load it on a CD or sell it to a marketing firm to turn around and sell it to someone else and make a bundle of money. Every one of those “make money for taking a survey” I have dealt with was a scam.
Some of the surveys tell you that youi must disable your firewall or other protections before teking the survey so they can get other info off your computer without your knowledge. I did not even talk to them. Others track you by your email address or other personal info, but many will promose you that no one will contact youi unless you opt in by checking some box on the survey screen. This is also often a lie. As a test I used a temporary email address and gave a bunch of bogus personal information and indicated I had no interest in hearing from them or ANY of their associated. I gave a very unique mispelling of my name and within the week I was getting junk emails from at least 12 different companies all addressing me by my mispelled name. I had never even finished the survey each time because I was told they were not interested in me.
In another effort to test the truth of the survey I exited the survey, cleared all my cookies and temp files from my computer, rebooted and took it again and again, each time using a different email address and deliberately answered the questions in a different way. Not one time did I ever get to the part where I got paid for the survey, even after answering some questions for over an hour.
If you found some places that are legit, great! I sure haven’t.